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Post by Kahn on Dec 15, 2016 19:55:40 GMT -6
This is a question for you guys with much more experience than I. The least complicated route to better performance with the Kawasaki 1600cc Twin is obviously pipes and intake. If you want to take it to an even higher level though, there's no way around having the engine re-done with a big-bore kit and cams right?
That has to be an expensive proposition. We're talking in the neighborhood of $1500?
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Post by Admin on Dec 15, 2016 20:19:50 GMT -6
I will get back to ya on that one in the morning, when I get off work.
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Post by Admin on Dec 16, 2016 9:40:19 GMT -6
This is a question for you guys with much more experience than I. The least complicated route to better performance with the Kawasaki 1600cc Twin is obviously pipes and intake. If you want to take it to an even higher level though, there's no way around having the engine re-done with a big-bore kit and cams right? That has to be an expensive proposition. We're talking in the neighborhood of $1500? unfortunately nothing is easy with these. Take my views on this with a grain of salt lol. I take a very unconventional route to get to my end results, results that may or may not be the results I want lol. Here goes. The intake manifold on these is of concern because it does not flow for crap or at least I don't think it does ( no flow bench testing ) but being how its made and the size leads me to this. The 1600 meanstreak heads are much better than the 1500 meanstreak heads, the 1500 meanstreak cams are much better than 1600 cams. The cams in the 1600 meanstreak are the same cam profile used in every Vulcan 1500 and 1600 engine since moby dick was a minnow, all but the 1500 meanstreaks. These things with the 1500 cams love a lot of compression. you can safely go 12:1 or close with out using additives. Jimmys scoot is close to 13:1, does use additive when hitting it hard, mine was close to 14:1 and if I ran it easy no problems but needed some good gas to keep detonation out of it or additive. The 1500 cams have a very late intake close which is why you can run some good compression. Port work, intake work, tb work, compression, big bore if ya want. I also like to use the 1500 rods in a 1600 because they are .200 longer. use the longest rod you can stuff in an engine is what I always was taught. Reason for this is the longer the rod the less thrust angle you will have, that is easier on the piston skirts, less side loading, less friction, also the longer the rod the more time at TDC the piston is, this gets ya some power. I only smooth and contour the ports because I have yet to purchase or build a flow bench. I work a lot on the bowl area under the seat, smooth the intake ports removing all parting lines, rough casting, smooth but not highly polished. The ports for a FI engine is different than for a carbed engine. You can have the intake ports nice and smooth because all the atomization is done with the injector, so we are after air flow. Carbed needs a little bit of texture in the port to get that. Exhaust side gets same work as intakes but gets the reed valve hole plugged and port is mirror polished. This really only helps in the first little bit of running but the port will stay smooth but be carbon up after a while. I have in the past took the rods and had the small end bushed to accept a .927 pin. Also polish the beams taking all of the parting line out. This makes the rods a little stronger. These engines have forged rods and forged cranks. Bottom end I think is pretty strong. Believe it or not but the older 1500 say 1998 twin carb made good power, as good or better than our 1600 meanies. This is from the head design and better flowing of the carbs and intakes. I am doing a crazy deal if I can pull it off. Using rear heads on front and rear!!! yea you heard it hear first lol!! The reason is that the rear head is better than the front, port is centered between both valves, the front is not. I will have to make an intake because now the ports do not line up with each other like before. If I can not pull this off it back to plan d, revision 10 lol. So after me rambling and to answer your question. Yes pipes, intake and controller is the most straight forward thing to do, but without going into the engine you can smooth and polish the intake, polish the TB, mod the throttle shaft by cutting half of it off. I have pics somewhere. If you don't think this makes a difference, ask bluestreak how this woke up his nomad by using one of my TB and intakes. These things like a lot of fuel when you put some compression to her. I run about 30% more on my map than I would on a big three modded engine. Mikes 1500 runs about 6% across the board. Nothing is cheap for any build on any engine. You have to ask yourself ! whats it worth to ya to gain 20-30 rwhp. Stock bore, good heads, 1500 cams, 1600 engine 11.5:1, long rods, good TB and intake, Good flowing air cleaner, like a bad ace with a 3" air cleaner, I am comfortable in saying 95hp or real close to it. You go nuts with compression, big bore and dial in the cams and good pipes 100+. Now Do I have Dyno sheets?? No this is a discussion for another time lol. I have some pics I will load from my phone on the head deal.
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Post by Kahn on Dec 16, 2016 11:02:21 GMT -6
This is a question for you guys with much more experience than I. The least complicated route to better performance with the Kawasaki 1600cc Twin is obviously pipes and intake. If you want to take it to an even higher level though, there's no way around having the engine re-done with a big-bore kit and cams right? That has to be an expensive proposition. We're talking in the neighborhood of $1500? unfortunately nothing is easy with these. Take my views on this with a grain of salt lol. I take a very unconventional route to get to my end results, results that may or may not be the results I want lol. Here goes. The intake manifold on these is of concern because it does not flow for crap or at least I don't think it does ( no flow bench testing ) but being how its made and the size leads me to this. The 1600 meanstreak heads are much better than the 1500 meanstreak heads, the 1500 meanstreak cams are much better than 1600 cams. The cams in the 1600 meanstreak are the same cam profile used in every Vulcan 1500 and 1600 engine since moby dick was a minnow, all but the 1500 meanstreaks. These things with the 1500 cams love a lot of compression. you can safely go 12:1 or close with out using additives. Jimmys scoot is close to 13:1, does use additive when hitting it hard, mine was close to 14:1 and if I ran it easy no problems but needed some good gas to keep detonation out of it or additive. The 1500 cams have a very late intake close which is why you can run some good compression. Port work, intake work, tb work, compression, big bore if ya want. I also like to use the 1500 rods in a 1600 because they are .200 longer. use the longest rod you can stuff in an engine is what I always was taught. Reason for this is the longer the rod the less thrust angle you will have, that is easier on the piston skirts, less side loading, less friction, also the longer the rod the more time at TDC the piston is, this gets ya some power. I only smooth and contour the ports because I have yet to purchase or build a flow bench. I work a lot on the bowl area under the seat, smooth the intake ports removing all parting lines, rough casting, smooth but not highly polished. The ports for a FI engine is different than for a carbed engine. You can have the intake ports nice and smooth because all the atomization is done with the injector, so we are after air flow. Carbed needs a little bit of texture in the port to get that. Exhaust side gets same work as intakes but gets the reed valve hole plugged and port is mirror polished. This really only helps in the first little bit of running but the port will stay smooth but be carbon up after a while. I have in the past took the rods and had the small end bushed to accept a .927 pin. Also polish the beams taking all of the parting line out. This makes the rods a little stronger. These engines have forged rods and forged cranks. Bottom end I think is pretty strong. Believe it or not but the older 1500 say 1998 twin carb made good power, as good or better than our 1600 meanies. This is from the head design and better flowing of the carbs and intakes. I am doing a crazy deal if I can pull it off. Using rear heads on front and rear!!! yea you heard it hear first lol!! The reason is that the rear head is better than the front, port is centered between both valves, the front is not. I will have to make an intake because now the ports do not line up with each other like before. If I can not pull this off it back to plan d, revision 10 lol. So after me rambling and to answer your question. Yes pipes, intake and controller is the most straight forward thing to do, but without going into the engine you can smooth and polish the intake, polish the TB, mod the throttle shaft by cutting half of it off. I have pics somewhere. If you don't think this makes a difference, ask bluestreak how this woke up his nomad by using one of my TB and intakes. These things like a lot of fuel when you put some compression to her. I run about 30% more on my map than I would on a big three modded engine. Mikes 1500 runs about 6% across the board. Nothing is cheap for any build on any engine. You have to ask yourself ! whats it worth to ya to gain 20-30 rwhp. Stock bore, good heads, 1500 cams, 1600 engine 11.5:1, long rods, good TB and intake, Good flowing air cleaner, like a bad ace with a 3" air cleaner, I am comfortable in saying 95hp or real close to it. You go nuts with compression, big bore and dial in the cams and good pipes 100+. Now Do I have Dyno sheets?? No this is a discussion for another time lol. I have some pics I will load from my phone on the head deal. Wow! I sit here in friggin awe. You've learned the hard way which is always the best. Hypothetically speaking, are you still open to having some vagabond Meanie owner send you his intake & TB?
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Post by Admin on Dec 16, 2016 11:51:18 GMT -6
send it my way!!!
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Post by Admin on Dec 16, 2016 13:07:05 GMT -6
Here pics of ports. First is rear head, then front
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Post by Admin on Dec 16, 2016 13:08:40 GMT -6
This is how ports line up with front and rear and two rears. Front/rear first
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Post by sikotic on Dec 16, 2016 17:49:38 GMT -6
After I finish my body work my plan is to get a 2nd 1600 motor to go through and see just how far it can be pushed... This is definitely some good information.
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Post by Kahn on Dec 16, 2016 21:10:17 GMT -6
The cams just feel and sound like they're still a pretty mild grind. I no nothing whereof I speak, but it seems you could grab quite a few more horses with the right grind. Or has someone already done that?
PS I've seen heard and felt some Harley Screaming Eagle grinds that sound radical as Hell.
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Post by Admin on Dec 16, 2016 21:21:52 GMT -6
You are correct. They are mild but better than the 1600 cams. Webb has cams, thunder sells them. I have a set. Not much more cam though
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Post by Kahn on Dec 17, 2016 15:23:02 GMT -6
You are correct. They are mild but better than the 1600 cams. Webb has cams, thunder sells them. I have a set. Not much more cam though Then the natural question is, do you know what kind of grind would wake these things up and is there a cam maker who *would* produce that grind at a reasonable cost? Some shops will do one -offs fairly cheap if they not busy right? ( I know I'm likely being naive, but way back I was able to get a slightly "off" LT1 cam grind for my 72 SS Camaro pretty cheap)
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Post by Admin on Dec 17, 2016 19:54:40 GMT -6
You are correct. They are mild but better than the 1600 cams. Webb has cams, thunder sells them. I have a set. Not much more cam though Then the natural question is, do you know what kind of grind would wake these things up and is there a cam maker who *would* produce that grind at a reasonable cost? Some shops will do one -offs fairly cheap if they not busy right? ( I know I'm likely being naive, but way back I was able to get a slightly "off" LT1 cam grind for my 72 SS Camaro pretty cheap) Think about this!! we all love the hard hitting cammed sound of a healthy engine, right? Well two valve push rod and 4 valve engines differ a bunch in the cam grinds. On a 4 valve engine you will have less lift than you would have on a two valve engine because you have two valves pulling and exhausting so less lift is need. duration is the same as a two valve. So our engines with the 1500 cams is about the same as a two valve head with a 2.06 intake with a .550 lift cam. You don't get as much of the thump though. Also you notice my engine does not thump much but its idling around 1100- 1200 rpm. You pull it down to say 800-900, its about to die. I had contacted a cam grinder that would regrind the 1500 cams, I feel they would be better than the thunder cams ( web #736 )I think is the grind, but cost is a bit high but this guy is the best I feel in the country. He would not hard weld but rather we talked about reducing base circle around .050-.065, we should have enough movement in the lifters for this. we would gain about .035- .040 in lift with about 12% more duration. this would be a killer cam. Cost though was going to be around $600. If I had not got a buddy to sell me a set of the webb cams from a big bore kit, I would of went that route. Problem is that our rockers are conical rockers which means the part the rides on the cam lobe is not flat, rather it has a profile. No one likes to grind cams for these. The stock 1500 cams are very very good cams. if we did not have the ecu set rev limiter I feel they would pull to a true 6500-6800 rpm, but have no first hand experience on this.
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Post by Kahn on Dec 17, 2016 20:22:13 GMT -6
Kawasaki should have hired you.....
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Post by Admin on Dec 17, 2016 20:33:40 GMT -6
Kawasaki should have hired you..... Naw, I do a lot of thinking, tinkering, screwing stuff up, lol. I have some stuff in the works or moreover in my head but not 100% I want or can afford to pull the trigger lol.
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Post by Admin on Dec 18, 2016 14:36:11 GMT -6
Here is the difference between stock intake manifold and thunder billet manifold. If I go the conventional route, the thunder intake will be used. Intake ports in heads will be increased to this size as well. ID is on each intake.
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Post by Kahn on Dec 18, 2016 17:51:40 GMT -6
The increased air flow alone would improve power, but back to cams for a sec. You favor the 1500 meanies cams over the 1600. So if you were replacing 1600 cams, would you automatically get the 1500 cams or go with one of the other 2 choices?
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Post by Admin on Dec 18, 2016 18:43:54 GMT -6
1500 meanie cams are pretty good. You degree them in they are very good. Better than the Webb (thunder)? Not sure! Better than the custom ground? Not sure. Lol. Finding 1500 cams are hard to find. The thunder cams are only available with the thunder big bore kits. Webb will not sell that grind. The custom grind off 1500 meanie cores would be my choice if money didn't come into play. But being the ecu on the 1600 has Rev limiter set at 5900 and 1500 ecu at 6250 the 1500 cams work well. I use the 1500 ecu in 1600.
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Post by Admin on Dec 18, 2016 22:45:19 GMT -6
The open and close on the thunder ( Webb) cams intake aren't what I really want, close a little sooner than I want but will dial them in a little. Also with the big intake, big runners, big carb, custom intake or thunder intake, we should be able to turn this thing until it valve floats. The stock 1500 cams pull hard to limiter and feel they would be good to a true 6500 rpm.
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Post by ravenred on Dec 21, 2016 11:44:44 GMT -6
Another question is the transmission being able to handle more power. My problem is if I have that power I really like to use it, which is a big reason I sold off my crotch rockets. I've slowed down a bit over the years but I enjoy opening up my throttle and letting her run when the opportunity arises.
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Post by hagger on Dec 21, 2016 12:16:28 GMT -6
I believe Speed is running over 100 hp in his Marauder without any transmission issues. You can do what is called the big 3, Intake, pipes and a control module and get a good power boost.
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Post by ravenred on Dec 21, 2016 15:04:02 GMT -6
Awesome! I have V&H pipes already, still trying to decide what intake I want. Overall happy with the bike, just needs a few little tweaks here and there.Thanks!
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Post by Kahn on Dec 21, 2016 16:56:49 GMT -6
Awesome! I have V&H pipes already, still trying to decide what intake I want. Overall happy with the bike, just needs a few little tweaks here and there.Thanks! Having installed the Caddman Mod for an intake system myself, it is simply awesome. The cheap mods it has you do greatly increase airflow and it kicks more fuel to the engine when you need it with a simple little soldered in resistor. I still think for around $50-$60 bucks it's the best intake system going for these Meanies. After Caddman and my V&H Big Shots, she gained big power in the 3.8K to redline range. Attachments:
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Post by sikotic on Dec 21, 2016 19:17:31 GMT -6
Definitely a worthwhile investment. I did something like one this summer. My filter turned out to be a hell of a pain in the shin though cause I used a cone type filter. Still did wonders for the midrange power. Mine had a Cobra 2 into 1 exhaust and FI2000 fuel controller when I bought it so the intake was all I had left before I tear down the engine.
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Post by ravenred on Dec 21, 2016 21:46:28 GMT -6
Which cone filter did you use? I read something about using one somewhere but don't remember if it gave a part number or not.
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Post by sikotic on Dec 21, 2016 21:55:25 GMT -6
Which cone filter did you use? I read something about using one somewhere but don't remember if it gave a pet number or not. It's one from Spectre. I don't remember the part number and only have a short video of after I got it running right.
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Post by Kahn on Dec 21, 2016 22:06:59 GMT -6
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Post by TTE on Jan 8, 2017 14:03:45 GMT -6
Who is the "cam grinder" ? And does he grind other bike's cams as well ?
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Post by Admin on Jan 8, 2017 14:09:00 GMT -6
Who is the "cam grinder" ? And does he grind other bike's cams as well ? Web cams done the cams for the thunder big bore kits. Not sure who may be out there for the Yamaha scoots
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Post by Lagger on Mar 25, 2017 14:22:48 GMT -6
What's the differences between 1500 & 1600 heads? I have an extra pair of 1600 heads but one has badly damaged/broken fins - is it worth getting a replacement? (I have a good pair of 1500 heads) Thanks
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Post by Admin on May 18, 2017 11:22:23 GMT -6
Ok we are set in stone on my new engine build. Only waiting on my pistons built to my specs. So we will be 105 ci, 3.930 stroke with 4.125 bore. 4340 forged h-beam rods. Rods are 7" units. Stock 1600 rods are 6.970". 1500 rods are 7.070". re worked crank, offset ground from stock stroke of 3.74 to 3.930. Have not put rods on scale yet but feel a lot lighter. Lighter rods, lighter pistons, lighter crank = more hp just in that but also creates another problem. Internal reciprocating balance. I will not have the rotating assembly balanced because of the counter balance system we have. Before when adding lighter pistons and weight matching rods and pistons, this thing was baby butt smooth, zero harmonics. So I am hoping if I get any harmonics, I can counter that with altering timing of counter balance weights and crank. New rod on left, stock untouched on right. Notice stock Rods are forgings as well.
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