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Post by lee on Dec 9, 2016 15:57:57 GMT -6
So the saga continues. I actually found a water temp sensor that had fallen off which would explain some of it not running right, but still have the issue of flattening out and losing power at cruising. Acceleration seems ok but when it gets up to speed in a given gear it feels like I've let off the gas, a noticeable sudden slowdown. That, and it makes a ton of noise at those times, which is also noticeable when it's in the garage "idling" around 2K RPM and up. I pulled the plug tubes to check the chains, and they just don't look right to me. Here's a pic of the rear, and it really seems like the chain is awfully close to the tube. I don't remember it being that close. I'm suspicious that I messed up the guide installation somehow but I don't know how that would translate to poor running. Attachment DeletedThe front seems like that also but I couldn't get in there to get a good pic. The plugs also look odd, the rear seems ok but the front looks really sooty. All 4 plugs are new with about 25 miles on them. Attachment DeletedI can't find any other vacuum or electrical lines that aren't where they should be.
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Post by Admin on Dec 9, 2016 19:23:06 GMT -6
So the saga continues. I actually found a water temp sensor that had fallen off which would explain some of it not running right, but still have the issue of flattening out and losing power at cruising. Acceleration seems ok but when it gets up to speed in a given gear it feels like I've let off the gas, a noticeable sudden slowdown. That, and it makes a ton of noise at those times, which is also noticeable when it's in the garage "idling" around 2K RPM and up. I pulled the plug tubes to check the chains, and they just don't look right to me. Here's a pic of the rear, and it really seems like the chain is awfully close to the tube. I don't remember it being that close. I'm suspicious that I messed up the guide installation somehow but I don't know how that would translate to poor running. View AttachmentThe front seems like that also but I couldn't get in there to get a good pic. The plugs also look odd, the rear seems ok but the front looks really sooty. All 4 plugs are new with about 25 miles on them. View AttachmentI can't find any other vacuum or electrical lines that aren't where they should be. This is with no base gasket and no head gasket, so plunger is in about 2 clicks further than would be So the saga continues. I actually found a water temp sensor that had fallen off which would explain some of it not running right, but still have the issue of flattening out and losing power at cruising. Acceleration seems ok but when it gets up to speed in a given gear it feels like I've let off the gas, a noticeable sudden slowdown. That, and it makes a ton of noise at those times, which is also noticeable when it's in the garage "idling" around 2K RPM and up. I pulled the plug tubes to check the chains, and they just don't look right to me. Here's a pic of the rear, and it really seems like the chain is awfully close to the tube. I don't remember it being that close. I'm suspicious that I messed up the guide installation somehow but I don't know how that would translate to poor running. View AttachmentThe front seems like that also but I couldn't get in there to get a good pic. The plugs also look odd, the rear seems ok but the front looks really sooty. All 4 plugs are new with about 25 miles on them. View AttachmentI can't find any other vacuum or electrical lines that aren't where they should be. This is with no base gasket and no head gasket, so plunger is in about 2 clicks further than would be
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Post by lee on Dec 9, 2016 19:36:16 GMT -6
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Post by lee on Dec 10, 2016 14:34:38 GMT -6
Hm, pretty sure I posted last night but I don't see it.... I checked the oil and the sight glass is full- not a good sign. Plus it glows yellow-green under the UV light, just like the dye in the radiator, so guess what?
Out comes the engine again. Something's messed up in the top end, I wonder if the loss of power and sound change when not under load might be related to loss of compression?
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Post by Admin on Dec 10, 2016 14:58:43 GMT -6
Hm, pretty sure I posted last night but I don't see it.... I checked the oil and the sight glass is full- not a good sign. Plus it glows yellow-green under the UV light, just like the dye in the radiator, so guess what? Out comes the engine again. Something's messed up in the top end, I wonder if the loss of power and sound change when not under load might be related to loss of compression? Yea sounds about right, and not good.
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Post by lee on Dec 11, 2016 20:30:10 GMT -6
Got in there this afternoon, found a couple of concerns. The oil after draining. It's not that color, but under a UV light you can see swirls of the "wrong" liquid from the UV dye in the coolant. plus.google.com/113736821984714034730/posts/FiEK1TwXrBu?sfc=trueThis should be two vids of the pistons still in the cylinders. The clean one is the front and looks just like when I installed it, except for the two little dings at the rear, right where the exhaust valves are. Now, there are base and head gaskets installed, but maybe timing is off? I was pretty sure I got that right but maybe not. The dirty piston is the rear, and it looks a lot worse than when it went in. The crud is even wet, you can see the smudge where I ran my finger through it. It also looks like some crud and maybe metal around the edge of the piston so this one has to come off for sure. I did find a couple of noticeable metal chunks in the oil which might be from the torque limiter teeth. I ran a magnetic tool around the bottom end while I had the right side off before and didn't find any pieces though.
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Post by Admin on Dec 11, 2016 21:29:05 GMT -6
Yea cam may have been off by looking and seeing the valve marks on pistons. You may have been 180 out! They will run but not worth a darn. You may have been 90 deg off. I had once had the front off 180, no valve to Piston issues but knew it as soon as it started. But 90 out it may have ran well enough to ride and the noise was more than likely valves hitting Piston. Now though I would make sure you don't have bent exhaust valves. Also the oil not looking good either. How long did you ride her? May be Piston skirt rapid wear from valves hitting Piston. Man I feel for ya!
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Post by lee on Dec 11, 2016 22:21:06 GMT -6
It's only gone about 25 miles, wonder if it'd be worth it to have the valves done again. I'll leave the heads sitting upside down with some seafoam and see if they leak.
Sure don't know how the front got out 90 degrees, I was sure I checked & rechecked that it was tdc by the timing mark.
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Post by Admin on Dec 12, 2016 8:31:26 GMT -6
It's only gone about 25 miles, wonder if it'd be worth it to have the valves done again. I'll leave the heads sitting upside down with some seafoam and see if they leak. Sure don't know how the front got out 90 degrees, I was sure I checked & rechecked that it was tdc by the timing mark. Not sure on being out of time, just throwing that out there, you could fill the port up with Seafoam, wd-40, and see if it leaks.
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Post by lee on Dec 12, 2016 10:02:21 GMT -6
Yeah, but timing was what I was thinking also, it's the only thing that comes to mind for the valves hitting the piston which is what it sure looks like.
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Post by Admin on Dec 12, 2016 10:31:34 GMT -6
I was just thinking on it being 90 out was that maybe since the cam gears have multiple markings, that you just mistakenly lined up wrong. Only speculation on my part because I know for a fact you have done this several times, no issues , you have this down. But ya never know. one thing for sure , is, its sucks!!!
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Post by lee on Dec 12, 2016 22:46:46 GMT -6
Yeah, still can't imagine how I screwed that up. Next time I'll take a pic to document the timing! I feel fairly good about the heads and valves. I turned them upside down over cardboard and filled with Seafoam. Couldn't see any leaks or dripping onto the cardboard. While they were soaking I lightly scaled them with a screwdriver and the stuff came right off. Looks much better now.
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Post by lee on Dec 20, 2016 14:11:57 GMT -6
Well, my parts were delivered today from Partzilla, faster than expected So this weekend will be reassembly time. I still haven't found the cause of the coolant in oil, was hoping to see a broken head gasket or something obvious but nooooo.... can't be that simple. So I'm going to carefully re-gasket it and get it back together, and triple-check the timing, and hope that this does it.
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Post by Admin on Dec 20, 2016 16:07:00 GMT -6
Well, my parts were delivered today from Partzilla, faster than expected So this weekend will be reassembly time. I still haven't found the cause of the coolant in oil, was hoping to see a broken head gasket or something obvious but nooooo.... can't be that simple. So I'm going to carefully re-gasket it and get it back together, and triple-check the timing, and hope that this does it. Just a thought. You check the water pump? Maybe the inner seal?
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Post by lee on Dec 20, 2016 17:51:56 GMT -6
I've been reading that elsewhere. Pretty coinicidental but I think I'll check it out. I actually would like to find a reason.
Since the front jug & piston look so good I'm planning to leave them, but when I get home I'm going to check something. I can't remember if the coolant ports go through the base gasket (kind of think they do). If so I'll also pull that and regasket it to see. But realistically the WP sounds like a more likely culprit.
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Post by lee on Dec 20, 2016 23:15:33 GMT -6
Confirmed, there's only one coolant port through the base gasket. Couldn't remember without looking at it. So that's proabably a long shot. Going to look at the water pump this weekend.
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Post by lee on Dec 21, 2016 22:50:30 GMT -6
Just a test, don't know if it'll really mean anything, but figured I'd leave this for a while and see if, or how fast, the oil drains through the rings. So far no sigh of leakage. Probably should've used Mystery Oil but I just assumed that it would be low enough viscosity that it would leak through.
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Post by lee on Dec 21, 2016 23:22:53 GMT -6
One other thing I did is look under the front cylinder with a mirror and UV light. No sign of coolant leakage from the water pump port that I can see. Obvious coolant-laced oil in the sump and on various parts. Bumped the saturation a bit, you get the idea Also, as I was hunting around the 'net for ideas, tips, etc. I ran across something called "Head Gasket Shellac" made by Permatex (and probably others). Never heard of it, any thoughts on what it is? Seems to be a gasket aid like the RTV's but never heard of one called "shellac". The previous build I did put a thin coat of red RTV on the base gasket since my cylinder and crankcase aren't quite nick-free any more, but not too bad. This time I didn't but probably will when I reassemble the rear as a little extra insurance.
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Post by Admin on Dec 22, 2016 7:15:31 GMT -6
Nothing on head gaskets, they have a coating on them. Also I never use anything on base gaskets either. But in your case maybe I would.
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Post by hagger on Dec 22, 2016 8:25:49 GMT -6
For head gaskets I always use Permatex cooper coat. I broke a spark plug on my quad years ago and a small piece of ceramic fell into the cylinder and I was going riding the next day and did not have a new gasket so I sprayed copper coat on the gasket and reused it and so far 7 years later its still good. Been using this stuff since I was in the the service and I went in in 1978.
Maybe just go ahead and replace the water pump and reseal it as the engine is all apart any way and eliminate the possibility of it leaking. If you dont have a cracked cylinder or a head gasket leaking the coolant came from somewhere.
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Post by lee on Dec 26, 2016 18:26:04 GMT -6
So I'm not saying this is what I did, but it would explain the timing. Note the two "F" marks? I wonder if I used the one not opposite the hash mark? Seems weird, but I don't have a better idea at this point, and that would put the timing off 90 degrees. Here is the timing now. Since you can never get it exact, always at least 1/2 tooth off, I went for slightly advanced. I haven't torqued down the heads yet of course and that will effectively lengthen the chain a little bit. These are with the tensioners just finger tight and pushed in lightly.
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Post by lee on Dec 26, 2016 18:27:35 GMT -6
Hm, reached the attachment limit. Here's the rear timing: Since it saves time, I did the rear first and then only had to rotate the engine a little to get to the front mark. (I'm kidding!!!!)
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Post by Admin on Dec 26, 2016 19:02:13 GMT -6
Your Killing me lol.
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Post by Admin on Dec 26, 2016 20:12:13 GMT -6
Yes Lee, front cyl first. Line up mark on flywheel as you have in the pic, cam marks are, ( F) top and forward. Then rotate counter clockwise to rear mark on flywheel, cam marks the same but ( R) top and forward. Check alignment by putting pressure on chain adjuster guide with finger. Mine have always been a little retarded, kind of like me lol. I know not funny, but I ain't the brightest bulb in the box.
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Post by Admin on Dec 26, 2016 20:12:57 GMT -6
Hm, reached the attachment limit. Here's the rear timing: View AttachmentView AttachmentSince it saves time, I did the rear first and then only had to rotate the engine a little to get to the front mark. (I'm kidding!!!!) Use Tapatalk and not attachment
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Post by lee on Dec 26, 2016 20:40:44 GMT -6
Hitting the attachment limit isn't a big deal, and I can still type better on the computer than my phone. I'm a little old-school that way
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Post by hagger on Dec 27, 2016 8:26:17 GMT -6
Lee where do you think the coolant came from?
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Post by lee on Dec 27, 2016 9:26:31 GMT -6
Still no real idea. I have a new mechanical seal on order but I looked at the water pump and didn't see anything obvious with it. The drain outlet and hose are clear and there should be coolant there before it gets into the engine. All I can think of so far is something wrong with a head gasket, probably the rear, but nothing visually obvious.
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Post by hagger on Dec 27, 2016 12:30:48 GMT -6
Have you checked all the surfaces of the cylinder and the heads with a straight edge to make they are indeed flat. After watching you go through this I hope you find the coolant leak before you put it back together.
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Post by TTE on Dec 27, 2016 13:00:57 GMT -6
Will throw in my $0.02. I have read in previous threads, that the water pump seal is a known problem and will have to be replaced eventually (may as well add the classic 5th gear while you're at it). I see the " F " marks on the timing thingy .... have no idea what you line them up WITH, or why there are two " F " marks. Is there any possibility that that timing gear thing could have gotten switched around ? (front timing gear got put on the back cylinder and the back gear on the front cylinder ?) Below is the total of my mechanical knowledge and experience
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